About to install LG300A1C-B3 300W AC microinverters, got some Q's

**thejq** · 09-12-2014, 03:26 AM

I was going to get those panels. But decided against it. Like you, I couldn't find any reviews about them, since they were just announced at Intersolar in July this year. I ended up getting the LG300N1C-B3 with SolarEdge inverter. My decision was based on the unknown factor, my installer's reluctance and my bias against micro-inverters in general.

I think you will lose lots of solar power by installing on the east facing roof. In San Diego, the morning is often cloudy. So you really need the south or south-west facing roof to capture the most sun power. With your SW proof, I think you can fit two rows, one vertically oriented, one horizontally. But relocating the solar water heater might be a problem. Also I'm assuming you will want to switch to the Solar TOU plan later, excess energy produced between 11-6 PM worth a lot more.

Have you tried pvwatts http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php ?

**AaronG** · 09-12-2014, 11:53 AM

That is the exact configuration that another company bid. LG300N1C-B3 with SolarEdge inverter, but also with SolarEdge optimizers.

I don't have any bias against micro-inverters, but I can appreciate that you do.
I also have a bit of the unknown factor, but LG is a huge company and I figure the panel itself must be the same as the LG300N1C-B3 but they have made microinverters specifically optimized for those panels. I have confindence in LG. If it was a smaller company I don't know as much about, I would have much more reluctance.

Where I am (a bit inland) it is clear. The companies told me if I was coastal, this would not be viable at all, but since I am not and don't have that morning fog or marine layer, etc. it is viable. Yes, I understand it isn't as ideal. Next week the Engineer who is going to be responsible for creating the plans is going to come out, get on my roof and measure everything so he can draw them up. I am going to have him check to see if he thinks he can fit the 20 panels on the west facing side as you said with one vertical and one horizontal, or ANY combination of the two and still allow for the new 2014 fire code mandates. If so, then I will contact the folks who installed my solar thermal heating and see what they may charge to move all that to the east facing roof, and see what kind of impact we may be talking about to thermal production. It is possible that they say it pretty much kills the thermal. It sure sucks having a pool that is in the 70's and your wife and young kids dont want to go in as it is too chilly for them to enjoy it. Myself and my guy friends we dive in anyhow. With the thermal, we can keep it 85-88F easily!

Originally posted by thejq

I was going to get those panels. But decided against it. Like you, I couldn't find any reviews about them, since they were just announced at Intersolar in July this year. I ended up getting the LG300N1C-B3 with SolarEdge inverter. My decision was based on the unknown factor, my installer's reluctance and my bias against micro-inverters in general.

I am not sure what TOU is, but I do think that overall, my production of power is not going to exceed or meet my current demand. I expect it to get quite close, reducing my 275$/mo bill to just Tier-1 usage and be quite low.

No I havent checked out pvwatts. I am going to look at it today! Thank you!!!!

I think you will lose lots of solar power by installing on the east facing roof. In San Diego, the morning is often cloudy. So you really need the south or south-west facing roof to capture the most sun power. With your SW proof, I think you can fit two rows, one vertically oriented, one horizontally. But relocating the solar water heater might be a problem. Also I'm assuming you will want to switch to the Solar TOU plan later, excess energy produced between 11-6 PM worth a lot more.

Have you tried pvwatts http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php ?

**J.P.M.** · 09-12-2014, 12:25 PM

1.) Kind of pricey/Watt. I think you may do better even with the electrical panel work. Talk to thejq about price.

2.) Hope you got a reputable electrical contractor for that price. Fly by nights are all over own these days. Caveat Emptor big time.

3.) Even at that orientation, I think the estimated production is low. As others have suggested, check out the new PVWatts. It will get you what you've described as what you want. Be sure to read ALL the info screens before running. Takes about 10 min. Even though there is some indications that the LG 300 outperforms the S.P. 327 on an output/nameplate Watt basis, use the "standard" panel choice. A 16% or so derate using the new PVWatts seems to be realistic around here, in spite of the crap some peddlers are spewing.

4.) After the panels are on your roof for a week or so, my guess is you'll stop seeing them pretty much regardless of where they are. That south facing portion may see the street, but panels there will quickly fade into the day/day view. It looks like far and away a better choice for best annual output. I'd put the rest on the west facing roof, move the pool heaters, and get a pool cover to maintain temp. or tell everyone else to get tough - adversity builds character - that sort of thing.

5.) As a head's up, keep in mind the SDG & E rate landscape is changing and rates may be dropping some. Also, know that replacing your entire electric load w/ solar will probably not be as cost effective as eliminating all but the lower tier usage. Pay your money, take your choice, but walk in with your mind and eyes open.

6.) I'd be real careful about T.O.U. It may work or you or not. There's scuttlebutt that a solar users' group who work at Qualcomm has sort of figured out that for most of them, T.O.U. ain't worth it. Every sit. is different. Be careful and do your own homework. Again, mind and eyes open.

**AaronG** · 09-12-2014, 01:15 PM

I'll talk to thejq in a PM in a minute, thank you.
I actually didn't even notice he was in Carlsbad till just now or that you were too. wow. small world, right?

I had 4 quotes and they were all very close, so I may just be overcharged by 4 people. Sucks.

The price to upgrade the panel is high at $1999, but they tell me that if I pay for my electrician (who I know and trust and he is very qualified) his price is $1600. But $1999 - 30% (fed tax credit) = $1399 so it is less than his $1600. I absolutely can use the tax credit with what my family income and the taxes we pay is. So $1399 is better than $1600. And I dont think paying him the $1600 allows me to file the for the 30% fed tax credit since it isnt part of the solar company work?

This PVWatts is awesome. I'm playing with it. very cool. The #'s change a ton based on array azimuth. With no other factors other than the orientation, I am losing out on about 1300kWh yearly with the orientation how I planned.

direct south facing panels per that image I gave is not an option. That portion of the roof is my 1st level and you could technically jump up and slap them with you hand (like a slam dunk of a basketball hoop). It's ugly as sin right there and the whole world will see them. The area where the thermal is, you cannot see at all. The area where the PV is planned you cant see either. I just need to decide: Do I move the thermal? I need to work with the engineer and see about effectiveness.

I am an SDGE employee too, so I get the 25% discount, which is nice... But ya TOU may not be for me still. I will look in to all of that!
Thanks so so much!!

Originally posted by J.P.M.

1.) Kind of pricey/Watt. I think you may do better even with the electrical panel work. Talk to thejq about price.

2.) Hope you got a reputable electrical contractor for that price. Fly by nights are all over own these days. Caveat Emptor big time.

3.) Even at that orientation, I think the estimated production is low. As others have suggested, check out the new PVWatts. It will get you what you've described as what you want. Be sure to read ALL the info screens before running. Takes about 10 min. Even though there is some indications that the LG 300 outperforms the S.P. 327 on an output/nameplate Watt basis, use the "standard" panel choice. A 16% or so derate using the new PVWatts seems to be realistic around here, in spite of the crap some peddlers are spewing.

4.) After the panels are on your roof for a week or so, my guess is you'll stop seeing them pretty much regardless of where they are. That south facing portion may see the street, but panels there will quickly fade into the day/day view. It looks like far and away a better choice for best annual output. I'd put the rest on the west facing roof, move the pool heaters, and get a pool cover to maintain temp. or tell everyone else to get tough - adversity builds character - that sort of thing.

5.) As a head's up, keep in mind the SDG & E rate landscape is changing and rates may be dropping some. Also, know that replacing your entire electric load w/ solar will probably not be as cost effective as eliminating all but the lower tier usage. Pay your money, take your choice, but walk in with your mind and eyes open.

6.) I'd be real careful about T.O.U. It may work or you or not. There's scuttlebutt that a solar users' group who work at Qualcomm has sort of figured out that for most of them, T.O.U. ain't worth it. Every sit. is different. Be careful and do your own homework. Again, mind and eyes open.

**J.P.M.** · 09-12-2014, 01:20 PM

You are entirely welcome. Actually, I'm in 92026. That Employee discount on your bill may alter the economics a bit for you. Sounds like the solar vendor is dancing with your leg for that electrical work. I'd at least get the solar vendor to price match on the trusted electrician's price. The solar vendor is padding the price of the elec. panel work and taking your tax credit.

**AaronG** · 09-12-2014, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by J.P.M.

You are entirely welcome. Actually, I'm in 92026. That Employee discount on your bill may alter the economics a bit for you. Sounds like the solar vendor is dancing with your leg for that electrical work. I'd at least get the solar vendor to price match on the trusted electrician's price. The solar vendor is padding the price of the elec. panel work and taking your tax credit.

I agree he is doing that. I understand his logic that MY price of $1399 is cheaper than my electricians $1600. But it still seems wrong to me.
I am 92078 in San Marcos.

I just got off the phone with Sun Chaser (who installed the thermal) and he said they do re-locations a lot. What I need first is engineering plans from my PV solar company showing how many they can fit on my SW facing side, and where they will be, vs the panels being on the NE facing side. We can review those 2 plans and then work with the thermal folks and see about relocating. He said to expect about 15% reduction in effectiveness on my thermal. I honestly havent had it on for the last 2 months, it's so warm now, my pools 85 or so just sitting these days. IF I wanted it 88, I can kick it on for 1.5 hour and it's 88. So I am definitely entertaining this idea.

**thejq** · 09-12-2014, 01:48 PM

Yes, SolarEdge inverter with optimizers is what I got. I don't think SolarEdge inverter works by itself.

I think you're right that LG300N1C and LG300A1C are the same panels. So DC outputs should be exactly the same. I don't like microinverters because the location where they're installed is just too hot. It's especially true for inland area. SolarEdge's optimizers are smaller and simpler with ceramic capacitors. So technically they will last longer than the microinverters. But I also agree that LG is a company that you can bank on for the warranty if anything happens, provided that your installer can last that long. Note that my bias is based on comparing Enphase micro vs SolarEdge optimizer. So it might not apply to LGs.

For SDG&E TOU plan, the cost of electricity is different throughout the day. For example in the summer, from 11-6PM (peak hour) is about 40c/KWh and otherwise 20c/KWh. So if you solar produce 10KWh during the peak hour, and you only use 5. You will have excess of $2 (5 * $0.4) which will allow you to use 10 KWh off peak. It works well if you're not using that much during the peak hours (at work?). You can set your AC to turn on right before you get home.

For your pool, they are many ways to heat it up. If you don't mind the hassle, pool thermal blanket (or cover) is your best choice. Not only it heats up the pool, it also reduces evaporation which is also $$$. The manual ones are really inexpensive. I have both the pool cover and solar thermal collector. The cover can easily raise the pool temperature by 5-10 degrees. If I want even warmer, I start the solar thermal circulation. Another good alternative is pool heat pump which is like running refrigerator in reverse by sucking heat from the air. It's supposed to be much more efficient. I'm almost certain the combination of cover and heat pump will be cheaper to run than your current solar thermal collector.

If you can put it on the SW side, you can probably reduce the # of panels by 10-15%. The $$$ you save there can be used to upgrade your pool heating.

**AaronG** · 09-12-2014, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by thejq

Yes, SolarEdge inverter with optimizers is what I got. I don't think SolarEdge inverter works by itself.

I think you're right that LG300N1C and LG300A1C are the same panels. So DC outputs should be exactly the same. I don't like microinverters because the location where they're installed is just too hot. It's especially true for inland area. SolarEdge's optimizers are smaller and simpler with ceramic capacitors. So technically they will last longer than the microinverters. But I also agree that LG is a company that you can bank on for the warranty if anything happens, provided that your installer can last that long. Note that my bias is based on comparing Enphase micro vs SolarEdge optimizer. So it might not apply to LGs.

For SDG&E TOU plan, the cost of electricity is different throughout the day. For example in the summer, from 11-6PM (peak hour) is about 40c/KWh and otherwise 20c/KWh. So if you solar produce 10KWh during the peak hour, and you only use 5. You will have excess of $2 (5 * $0.4) which will allow you to use 10 KWh off peak. It works well if you're not using that much during the peak hours (at work?). You can set your AC to turn on right before you get home.

For your pool, they are many ways to heat it up. If you don't mind the hassle, pool thermal blanket (or cover) is your best choice. Not only it heats up the pool, it also reduces evaporation which is also $$$. The manual ones are really inexpensive. I have both the pool cover and solar thermal collector. The cover can easily raise the pool temperature by 5-10 degrees. If I want even warmer, I start the solar thermal circulation. Another good alternative is pool heat pump which is like running refrigerator in reverse by sucking heat from the air. It's supposed to be much more efficient. I'm almost certain the combination of cover and heat pump will be cheaper to run than your current solar thermal collector.

If you can put it on the SW side, you can probably reduce the # of panels by 10-15%. The $$$ you save there can be used to upgrade your pool heating.

Good info. I am skeptical that they can actually get the A1C panels. They assured me they can, but if they cannot, and offer the N1C, they will likely lose my business and I'll go with the other bid I got the N1C panels (he cannot get the A1C he says at all, and thinks not till 2015). I wouldn't be happy being tricked like that...

I have read large inverter vs microinverters and the heat idea etc. I saw threads saying that the microinverter is smaller so dissipates less heat than the large inverter. Being on the roof, yes hotter. Pros/cons, pros/cons... But yeah I hear ya.

As far as the pool heat, I have had a few bubble covers over the years I've used. They sure to help with evaporation, and require less chemicals. They seem to work pretty well too. I even created my own solar rings once using polyethylene tube and attached the bubble cover in rings. I tried this for a while with the idea that you could still dive in and swim around the rings and pop-up in between them. Easy for me and my Son mid-week when we just wanna go in, vs the entire pool being covered by a huge cover. We hated having to take them off and on, etc. Finally decided this year to do the thermal.

I am totally exploring the PV on the SW and moving thermal to the NE. I just need more measurements and plans from the PV guys. Right now I am speculating... I put my deposit down last Saturday and paid some money. They told me 7-10 days for the engineer. We're at 6 now. If I dont hear from them by Monday, I'll be on the phone with them. I wanna get the ball rolling here...

**thejq** · 09-12-2014, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by AaronG

Right now I am speculating... I put my deposit down last Saturday and paid some money. They told me 7-10 days for the engineer. We're at 6 now. If I dont hear from them by Monday, I'll be on the phone with them. I wanna get the ball rolling here...

Sounds like you're already committed to that installer with the deposit. So trying to work out the best solution/design with the engineer is your best bet. I'm sure the LG AC panels are good quality panels. Because they're new, I'm sure a lot of people will be interested in hearing about your experience after the installation -- myself included.

**AaronG** · 09-17-2014, 06:55 PM

The solar engineer who will be responsible for planning the entire install came out today and got on my roof. I have a few thoughts now based on his feedback, and I believe he is sincere.

I can fit 21 panels on my southwest facing side. (the ideal side)
My thermal can be moved from the southwest to the northeastern side. They do thermal as well and without 100% committing to it, he mentioned they can likely move it for me. It means going from 8 thermal panels to 6 thermal panels though. Warranty might be in question unless I have the original company move it.

His personal opinion is that if I mounted on the NE side that I use the LG DC panels with the SolarEdge Power Optimizers and the SolarEdge inverter.
He recommends I mount on the SW side and says there is no reason to use the SolarEdge Power Optimizers because there will never, ever be shade on that area at all.

He is going to send me the power generating numbers for the 300W panels on the NE and SW (21 panels). He is going to also send me the power #s for the SunPower 327W panels too. He said I should look at them both and if I want to think about the 327W I should see if my sales rep can work me a deal on that.

My gut says what I am going to do is 21 panels on the SW side of the LG DC 300W panels with a single garage mounted inverter. We'll see though once I get these numbers and pass them on to you guys. I'll post em up here.

He thinks that if I go SW that there is no immediate reason to go SolarEdge and his personal favorite is an SMA "TL" inverter which gives you a 1200W per inverter (I can have 2) AC power outlets so that *IF* SDGE ever had a power outage, I could plug items in to it with an extension cord, like my fridge, or anything else I want. It seems like a nice perk. He says their management system is real nice too. He does agree though that if it had to go on the NE side with any chance of shade, that SolarEdge is the direction I should go.

Your input is so appreciated! This is a lot to absorb

**silversaver** · 09-17-2014, 07:57 PM

There is no reason for you to use SE if no shade, SMA TL series are good choices. The TL-US-22 series go all the way from 3000W to 6000W output.

**thejq** · 09-17-2014, 08:19 PM

So what happened to the LG300A1C panels? Did you change your mind? SMA is a great choice, as long as I don't think you will expand the system later on, and you don't need per panel monitoring.

**J.P.M.** · 09-17-2014, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by AaronG

The solar engineer who will be responsible for planning the entire install came out today and got on my roof. I have a few thoughts now based on his feedback, and I believe he is sincere.

I can fit 21 panels on my southwest facing side. (the ideal side)
My thermal can be moved from the southwest to the northeastern side. They do thermal as well and without 100% committing to it, he mentioned they can likely move it for me. It means going from 8 thermal panels to 6 thermal panels though. Warranty might be in question unless I have the original company move it.

His personal opinion is that if I mounted on the NE side that I use the LG DC panels with the SolarEdge Power Optimizers and the SolarEdge inverter.
He recommends I mount on the SW side and says there is no reason to use the SolarEdge Power Optimizers because there will never, ever be shade on that area at all.

He is going to send me the power generating numbers for the 300W panels on the NE and SW (21 panels). He is going to also send me the power #s for the SunPower 327W panels too. He said I should look at them both and if I want to think about the 327W I should see if my sales rep can work me a deal on that.

My gut says what I am going to do is 21 panels on the SW side of the LG DC 300W panels with a single garage mounted inverter. We'll see though once I get these numbers and pass them on to you guys. I'll post em up here.

He thinks that if I go SW that there is no immediate reason to go SolarEdge and his personal favorite is an SMA "TL" inverter which gives you a 1200W per inverter (I can have 2) AC power outlets so that *IF* SDGE ever had a power outage, I could plug items in to it with an extension cord, like my fridge, or anything else I want. It seems like a nice perk. He says their management system is real nice too. He does agree though that if it had to go on the NE side with any chance of shade, that SolarEdge is the direction I should go.

Your input is so appreciated! This is a lot to absorb

Your gut w/21 SW panels and a string inverter sounds better to me than the NE location. If it was me, I'd still get another quote just to confirm price, but it ain't me . Still, a good vendor is worth some premium.

**AaronG** · 09-17-2014, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by thejq

So what happened to the LG300A1C panels? Did you change your mind? SMA is a great choice, as long as I don't think you will expand the system later on, and you don't need per panel monitoring.

I havent fully changed my mind yet. The engineer actually hadnt heard of the LG AC panel. He didnt sound too into micro inverters I guess his personal experience he really liked the SE products and figured it would be better to go that route. To each their own though, everyone has an opinion. Can you get per panel monitoring if you dont go with the SE Power Optimizers?

About to install LG300A1C-B3 300W AC microinverters, got some Q's

About to install LG300A1C-B3 300W AC microinverters, got some Q's

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment