When is a battery cheaper than a power plant?

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  • pleppik
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2014
    • 508

    When is a battery cheaper than a power plant?

    I stumbled across a couple of interesting technical analyses today comparing the cost of building giant battery banks instead of new power plants.

    The first study was performed by the Electric Power Research Institute in 2013 and commissioned by the California Public Utility Commission. This study looked at a whole bunch of different scenarios, but the one which jumped out at me was the case where battery banks would be installed at distribution substations in California. They concluded that in this case, a large Lithium-Ion battery would pay for itself if the battery costs less than about $1,500/kWh.

    The second study was done in 2014 by The Brattle Group on behalf of Oncor, a big grid operator in Texas. This study found that in Texas, if Li-Ion batteries cost $350/kWh, it would be cost-effective to install up to 15,000MWh of batteries across the Texas grid.

    It seems that nobody other than Elon Musk himself knows how much a big lithium-ion battery really costs these days (and he's not telling), but some Googling reveals estimates ranging from $200 to $500 or so. Nissan charges $270/kWh for a replacement Leaf battery, but they require you to turn in the old one so some people think there's a subsidy built into that number. Some analysts are forecasting battery prices as low as $160/kWh within five years, and of course Tesla has some mysterious announcement in a couple weeks which a lot of people think will be a cheap battery pack.

    But whatever the exact number for the cost of batteries, these studies both basically conclude that grid-tied batteries are going to be cheap enough to pay for themselves within a few years (if they aren't there already).

    I was really surprised to read this, especially coming from two different studies by two different firms looking at two very different markets. I'm used to thinking of batteries as crazy-expensive compared to grid power. So what's going on?

    While batteries are still crazy-expensive compared to the retail price of electricity, and crazy-expensive compared to the average cost for a utility to generate or buy power, they're cheaper than the cost of generating power from a peaker plant, which is even crazier-expensive. So building giant batteries and charging them from base power generation to handle peak loads is a financial win.

    Plus the base power generation also tends to be more fuel efficient, so it's an environmental win as well.

    And as a bonus, batteries can be located at the distribution end of the grid, saving the cost of upgrading or maintaining the transmission lines from a new power plant. It turns out this is a substantial cost savings as well. Engineering the transmission lines to handle the peak load means there's a lot of unused capacity most of the time.

    Even though these analyses weren't looking specifically at solar/wind power, it's also worth noting that building a lot of battery storage into the grid also happens to make it easier to use larger amounts of those intermittent power sources. So in this case, the power companies could do well by doing good.
    16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters
  • SunEagle
    Super Moderator
    • Oct 2012
    • 15126

    #2
    Interesting studies. Something to keep our eye on.

    I would presume each Utility has it's own calculation as to when a local energy storage system is worth the cost since one is at $1500/kWh and the other is @ $350/kWh.

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    • pleppik
      Solar Fanatic
      • Feb 2014
      • 508

      #3
      Originally posted by SunEagle
      Interesting studies. Something to keep our eye on.

      I would presume each Utility has it's own calculation as to when a local energy storage system is worth the cost since one is at $1500/kWh and the other is @ $350/kWh.
      Each study was looking specifically at the local market conditions, but they were also answering slightly different questions.

      The California study was trying to answer the question, "how cheap do batteries have to be before they're cheaper than a power plant?" and came up with a bunch of different answers for different scenarios. The $1,500/kWh was the answer for the particular scenario where the batteries are placed at power substations.

      The Texas study was trying to answer the question, "If batteries cost $350/kWh, how much would it make sense to install in Texas?" and came up with 15 GWh (which is a monstrous quantity, something like half the annual production of lithium batteries worldwide). I think they chose the $350 number because they thought it's likely batteries will hit that price within five years.
      16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

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      • SunEagle
        Super Moderator
        • Oct 2012
        • 15126

        #4
        Originally posted by pleppik
        Each study was looking specifically at the local market conditions, but they were also answering slightly different questions.

        The California study was trying to answer the question, "how cheap do batteries have to be before they're cheaper than a power plant?" and came up with a bunch of different answers for different scenarios. The $1,500/kWh was the answer for the particular scenario where the batteries are placed at power substations.

        The Texas study was trying to answer the question, "If batteries cost $350/kWh, how much would it make sense to install in Texas?" and came up with 15 GWh (which is a monstrous quantity, something like half the annual production of lithium batteries worldwide). I think they chose the $350 number because they thought it's likely batteries will hit that price within five years.
        With the cost of electricity so high in Hawaii and the high percentage of solar pv installations I wonder if the battery "break even" cost is higher than the $15000/kWh for the CA study which would make it easier to justify with local energy storage systems.

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        • DanKegel
          Banned
          • Sep 2014
          • 2093

          #5
          Looks like one Hawaiian power company is refusing to sign up new net metered customers?http://www.hsea.org/_literature_2223..._to_Commission

          That ought to light a fire under storage.

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          • russ
            Solar Fanatic
            • Jul 2009
            • 10360

            #6
            Originally posted by DanKegel
            Looks like one Hawaiian power company is refusing to sign up new net metered customers?http://www.hsea.org/_literature_2223..._to_Commission

            That ought to light a fire under storage.
            Pardon? Not enough of a market to bother with.

            Utilities looking to time shift waste base line power are an immense market - one with money even.
            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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            • DanKegel
              Banned
              • Sep 2014
              • 2093

              #7
              Originally posted by russ
              Pardon? Not enough of a market to bother with.
              Maybe you're right there.

              Here's a year-old article about utilities and storage subsidies:
              Last October, California became the first government to require its utilities to store a significant slice of the power they produce, instead of using it all right away. Now a growing roster of states and countries is taking up versions of the same idea, creating rules or incentives that will place storage in homes in Japan and Germany, at wind farms in Puerto Rico, along transmission lines in Ontario, and at individual buildings in Manhattan.

              It said e.g. New York planned to offer subsidies of $2,100 a kilowatt for up to 100MW (sic) distributed battery storage, and California is planning 1.3 GW (sic) of utility-scale storage by 2020.
              Units aside, those sound like large numbers.

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              • donald
                Solar Fanatic
                • Feb 2015
                • 284

                #8
                Originally posted by russ

                Utilities looking to time shift waste base line power are an immense market - one with money even.
                Especially with old nuclear plants that apparently can't be throttled. EVs are one way to implement overnight battery storage, of course. Batteries replacing liquid fuel looks pretty good when the baseload is old nuclear baseload.

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                • J.P.M.
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 14939

                  #9
                  Originally posted by donald
                  Especially with old nuclear plants that apparently can't be throttled. EVs are one way to implement overnight battery storage, of course. Batteries replacing liquid fuel looks pretty good when the baseload is old nuclear baseload.
                  I'm not a big an of nukes, but on throttling it's not quite that simple. All power generation systems can be throttled or modulated, some have more or less flexibility as f(time) and process requirements. For one thing, if they couldn't be throttled, they couldn't be shut down.

                  Comment

                  • Sunking
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 23301

                    #10
                    Originally posted by donald
                    Especially with old nuclear plants that apparently can't be throttled..
                    Very ignorant statement. That is why people are so scared about nuclear power is they are completely ignorant and have been fed disinformation by the likes of people like you aka Fear Mongers.

                    If you cannot control the reaction it is called a BOMB and goes BOOM. Any reactor can be throttled or else they go into thermal runaway. You guys may not like it but nuclear power is the only real answer to electric generation. Just a matter of short time before generation capacity hits a wall creating a crisis, laws change, and we start building plant as fast as we can.
                    MSEE, PE

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                    • pleppik
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Feb 2014
                      • 508

                      #11
                      Originally posted by SunEagle
                      With the cost of electricity so high in Hawaii and the high percentage of solar pv installations I wonder if the battery "break even" cost is higher than the $15000/kWh for the CA study which would make it easier to justify with local energy storage systems.
                      Interesting question, but I don't know if it has an obvious answer. A lot of the payoff for utility-scale batteries in California and Texas comes from substituting cheap base power for expensive peaking power. My understanding is that part of the reason electricity is so expensive in Hawaii is that they have to import all their fuel and so they don't have much cheap base power.
                      16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

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                      • Sunking
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 23301

                        #12
                        Originally posted by pleppik
                        My understanding is that part of the reason electricity is so expensive in Hawaii is that they have to import all their fuel and so they don't have much cheap base power.
                        Real easy to find out, depends on which Island you are talking about. Lumping all Islands from all sources together you get.



                        Conventional

                        • Diesel 71.9%
                        • Coal 14.38*


                        Renewable

                        • Wind 5.28%
                        • Solid Waste 3.92%
                        • Geothermal 2.95%
                        • Biomass .43%
                        • Hydro .42%
                        • Solar .36%
                        • Bio Fuels .31%


                        Conventional Total = 86.28%
                        Renewable Total = 13.72%
                        MSEE, PE

                        Comment

                        • pleppik
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Feb 2014
                          • 508

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Sunking
                          Real easy to find out, depends on which Island you are talking about. Lumping all Islands from all sources together you get.



                          Conventional

                          • Diesel 71.9%
                          • Coal 14.38*


                          Renewable

                          • Wind 5.28%
                          • Solid Waste 3.92%
                          • Geothermal 2.95%
                          • Biomass .43%
                          • Hydro .42%
                          • Solar .36%
                          • Bio Fuels .31%


                          Conventional Total = 86.28%
                          Renewable Total = 13.72%
                          That's interesting and useful, but it doesn't actually tells us what the relative costs of those sources are. Hawaii doesn't have any fossil fuel reserves of its own, so all that coal and diesel has to be shipped halfway across the Pacific Ocean and is presumably more expensive than on the mainland.

                          One of the key factors in determining if it's cost-effective for a utility to install big batteries is the cost difference between generating base power and peak power. If the cost difference is small, then the batteries aren't going to pay for themselves. And I don't know what the cost difference is in Hawaii, but I'm pretty sure the island's power economics are very different than in California or Texas.
                          16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

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                          • Sunking
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 23301

                            #14
                            Originally posted by pleppik
                            but I'm pretty sure the island's power economics are very different than in California or Texas.
                            Texas? Where are you getting TX from? TX is the worlds largest RE producer in the world, but to my knowledge doe snot use batteries to store wind power to be used during peak.

                            While it is true fuel has to be shipped in and is expensive, but same holds true for batteries. With Solar only contributing .36% I cannot see how storing battery power would change that other than make it more inefficient.

                            You could charge at night from conventional sources to release during peak. Is that what you mean?
                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment

                            • pleppik
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Feb 2014
                              • 508

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Sunking
                              Texas? Where are you getting TX from? TX is the worlds largest RE producer in the world, but to my knowledge doe snot use batteries to store wind power to be used during peak.

                              While it is true fuel has to be shipped in and is expensive, but same holds true for batteries. With Solar only contributing .36% I cannot see how storing battery power would change that other than make it more inefficient.

                              You could charge at night from conventional sources to release during peak. Is that what you mean?
                              If you go back to the beginning of the thread you will find links to a couple of studies looking at the economics of grid storage in California and Texas.

                              SunEagle wondered if the economic analysis would be comparable in Hawaii.

                              And that is why we are comparing Hawaii to Texas.

                              Also, I'm not sure where you're getting 0.36% of Hawaii's electric generation from solar. According to the EIA data, in 2014 Hawaii got 0.48% of its utility-generated power from solar, excluding residential solar and commercial installations under 1MW.
                              16x TenK 410W modules + 14x TenK 500W inverters

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