Is this a fair quote for powering a small business?

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  • cori
    Junior Member
    • May 2016
    • 3
    #1

    Is this a fair quote for powering a small business?

    My dad is looking to set up solar to power his shop and home. It’s a medium sized job. On the quote he was given, he’s comfortable with the size and component types — but I can’t find anywhere online if this is a fair price for what they’re going to do. I’d love input from anyone who is familiar. It would be an off-grid system. Here’s the quote:

    (1) Radian FlexPower Inverter System 8kW: $9,500
    (38) 60 Cell Modules and Roof Mounting 10kW: $15,086 ($397 per)
    (1) Installation, power panel and general materials: $8,500
    (1) Battery Bank 12kW, 19.2kW hours, 48 volt, Zinc-Air, 8 hours, 240 volt, 10 amp category: $18,975

    Total: $52,061

    Thank you!
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    • SunEagle
      Super Moderator
      • Oct 2012
      • 15126
      #2
      Is there any reason to use an off grid system with batteries instead of a grid connected system?

      From some of the input an off grid system can cost between $2000 and $3000 per kWh which that one is about $2700
      Last edited by SunEagle; 05-18-2016, 10:12 AM. Reason: added last sentence

        Comment

        • cori
          Junior Member
          • May 2016
          • 3
          #3
          My dad is very distrusting of the grid and wants to be completely self-sufficient should anything ever happen haha. Okay, so it's on the higher end but not completely out of the ballpark. I want to make sure this company isn't taking advantage. Thanks for your help!

            Comment

            • SunEagle
              #3.1
              SunEagle commented
              05-18-2016, 11:36 AM
              Editing a comment
              Wait. Your father does not trust the grid but is willing to spend $52k for solar panels and batteries based on one person.

              Please tell your dad to go get more quotes for that type of system or take rsilvers advise and get a generator to run his loads if the grid goes down.

              It is not my money but $52k can get you a really nice system that does not involve batteries.
              • cori
                #3.2
                cori commented
                05-18-2016, 01:22 PM
                Editing a comment
                SunEagle hahah precisely. I will press him about these other options and also to get a second quote. He's going into this blind and I agree he needs to do more research. Thank you
              • rsilvers
                Junior Member
                • Apr 2016
                • 246
                #4
                Need to know the state. AZ is very cheap. Florida is very expensive.

                Your father can get a generator for off-grid backup.

                  Comment

                  • cori
                    #4.1
                    cori commented
                    05-18-2016, 11:15 AM
                    Editing a comment
                    It is Arizona. So you would recommend generator instead of the battery bank being pitched to him?
                  • J.P.M.
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Aug 2013
                    • 14939
                    #5
                    Originally posted by cori
                    My dad is very distrusting of the grid and wants to be completely self-sufficient should anything ever happen haha. Okay, so it's on the higher end but not completely out of the ballpark. I want to make sure this company isn't taking advantage. Thanks for your help!
                    Pay your money, take your choice. I'm not much on off grid stuff, but others here are very knowledgeable. So, without passing judgment on what's been quoted to him, or the knowledgeability of who quoted it, I'd bet when/if your father gets other correct, unbiased information and discovers how much it will cost to acquire and maintain a properly sized and equipped off grid system for this application, he may choose to re-evaluate his options.

                    Consensus around here is that for many/most applications, if grid tie is available, off grid ain't worth the time, treasure and toil by something approaching an order of magnitude. Look carefully before you leap, and be more skeptical of advice from folks with a dog in the fight.

                      Comment

                      • cori
                        #5.1
                        cori commented
                        05-18-2016, 11:16 AM
                        Editing a comment
                        Agree -- and I keep telling him to get multiple quotes. And to not just blindly trust the company. I will pass this information on to him. Thank you!
                      • rsilvers
                        Junior Member
                        • Apr 2016
                        • 246
                        #6
                        My friend paid $8500 for his battery bank for a 12.48 kW-STC system. The batteries have to be changed every 4-5 years. They are heavy and you have to pay someone to dispose of them, and they need watering. I am not sure how many hours they will power his house for, but for $8500 you can get a generator that will run for days or weeks. Just change the oil once a year or two.

                        I think he liked it because it was a "whole house UPS" and would have no interruption - not even for computers rebooting. If you lost power for a few days or weeks though, batteries would only work for a long-term outage if your system produced more power than you consumed, even in winter.
                        Last edited by rsilvers; 05-18-2016, 11:23 AM.

                          Comment

                          • rsilvers
                            #6.2
                            rsilvers commented
                            05-18-2016, 11:58 AM
                            Editing a comment
                            I don't know anything about what batteries should cost.

                            $19,000 would buy a hell of a nice generator that would run for weeks. You could get a 4-cylinder one for that meant for continuous use. My neighbor has one with a Ford car engine in it.

                            If you have a grid, he is nuts to not connect to it. Nuts.
                            • cori
                              #6.3
                              cori commented
                              05-18-2016, 01:25 PM
                              Editing a comment
                              I think his concern right now is the house isn't built. There's just a shop at the moment. It's a bit of a strange "catch 22" -- he needs power to build and work out of his shop but he can't get approval for power from the county until he builds a house on the property. He's not ready to build for maybe 2-3 years.
                              • wes@SH
                                #6.4
                                wes@SH commented
                                05-20-2016, 04:26 PM
                                Editing a comment
                                Based off the array size he was quoted and assuming yearly average irradiance in Arizona, it looks like he his energy needs are 32kwh a day. Generally considered the cheapest option for batteries for off grid, a FLA battery bank capable of storing the needed energy with 2 days of autonomy and 50% discharge would cost $30k+ and weigh 5 tons. So, $19,000 isn't steep, it is probably the wrong size and battery chemistry.
                              • J.P.M.
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 14939
                                #7
                                Originally posted by cori
                                Agree -- and I keep telling him to get multiple quotes. And to not just blindly trust the company. I will pass this information on to him. Thank you!
                                You're welcome. Sometimes goals can be achieved that have no other possible outcome than a pyrrhic victory. Just walk in with your eyes open.

                                Definitely NOMB, but any age related mental issues in the decision making process ? Just a thought.

                                Good luck.

                                  Comment

                                  • cori
                                    #7.1
                                    cori commented
                                    05-18-2016, 01:26 PM
                                    Editing a comment
                                    Thank you. Yes it is a bit of an issue, that and being set in his ways. But I'm going to present all this information and that should convince him to reconsider.
                                  • fraser
                                    Member
                                    • May 2016
                                    • 54
                                    #8
                                    $397 for 260w panels is way too much. Plenty of panels at $.8 - $1/W. You can buy a full pallet or more and get way better pricing. For a 10kw system you shouldn't be paying more than $20k on what is likely an easy install (likely a flat roof in AZ). I would oversize the system a bit to minimize the need to use the grid in suboptimum conditions. I like the generator idea as backup as well instead of the batteries.

                                    The Radian flexpower inverter should be $8500-8700. .

                                      Comment

                                      • cori
                                        #8.1
                                        cori commented
                                        05-23-2016, 07:32 PM
                                        Editing a comment
                                        Thank you!! I was suspicious this seemed high. I will pass this information onto him....
                                      • J.P.M.
                                        Solar Fanatic
                                        • Aug 2013
                                        • 14939
                                        #9
                                        Originally posted by cori
                                        Thank you. Yes it is a bit of an issue, that and being set in his ways. But I'm going to present all this information and that should convince him to reconsider.
                                        You're welcome. Sort of been in shoes similar to yours. Good luck.

                                          Comment

                                          • wes@SH
                                            Junior Member
                                            • May 2016
                                            • 14
                                            #10
                                            I haven't seen much or any talk about using zinc-air batteries with solar. With a google search, it looks like the technology that was going to change energy storage, all posts being around 2012. I would be suspicious of that chemistry, and I would wonder how a 10kw array getting 4 hours of sunlight could be stored in 12-19.2 kwh battery bank.

                                              Comment

                                              • SunEagle
                                                Super Moderator
                                                • Oct 2012
                                                • 15126
                                                #11
                                                Originally posted by wes@SH
                                                I haven't seen much or any talk about using zinc-air batteries with solar. With a google search, it looks like the technology that was going to change energy storage, all posts being around 2012. I would be suspicious of that chemistry, and I would wonder how a 10kw array getting 4 hours of sunlight could be stored in 12-19.2 kwh battery bank.
                                                The chances are if they were talking about a new battery technology 3 to 4 years ago and we still have not seen it hit the market then it either has been determined it wasn't economically possible or research funding ran out..

                                                  Comment

                                                  • john phillips
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • Apr 2016
                                                    • 29
                                                    #12
                                                    I would consider just installing a generator and using it until you can get grid to the shop. It is kind of strange that you cannot get a permit for electricity for the shop. Construction sites get temporary grid to be used for construction.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • SunEagle
                                                        Super Moderator
                                                        • Oct 2012
                                                        • 15126
                                                        #13
                                                        Originally posted by john phillips
                                                        I would consider just installing a generator and using it until you can get grid to the shop. It is kind of strange that you cannot get a permit for electricity for the shop. Construction sites get temporary grid to be used for construction.
                                                        He may require a permit for temporary power along with providing a building design and specifications. If the project is a couple years out the POCO may not agree to installing even a small temporary service.

                                                        I know it sucks for the customer but it also costs the POCO to do the install and let it just sit there for years.
                                                        Last edited by SunEagle; 05-20-2016, 04:18 PM. Reason: spelling

                                                          Comment

                                                          • wes@SH
                                                            Junior Member
                                                            • May 2016
                                                            • 14
                                                            #14
                                                            It looks like a startup is working on a residential Zinc-Air Battery, company name ZAF Energy Stystems. Eos Energy Storage that has commercial versions, is advertising a residential zinc-air solution in late 2017. It might be a nice long lasting low maintenance battery your father is getting, but I don't know if he wants to be experimenting. If he does, Aquion is half the cost per stored kWH, and one of their M-line might suit his consumption needs.

                                                              Comment

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