Inverter to main-AC-panel , no netmetering

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • GeorgeF
    Solar Fanatic
    • Nov 2018
    • 277

    Inverter to main-AC-panel , no netmetering

    Inverter to main-AC-panel , no netmetering


    Specs says: UL 458 supplement SA/1741.

    Im not asking this for myself cause I myself have no grid connection, I'm fully off-the-grid.

    Can someone with grid but no netmetering connect this "hard wired" bi-directional inverter (see pict) to his main-AC-panel? If not why not?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by GeorgeF; 05-11-2021, 06:35 AM. Reason: Typo
  • Mike90250
    Moderator
    • May 2009
    • 16020

    #2
    If the Power Company has properly configured their meters, they will be flagged as a Backfeed source, if the inverter is ever mis-configured and does "sell to the Grid" . Then your friend will have to explain what happened and bring their system into compliance.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment

    • GeorgeF
      Solar Fanatic
      • Nov 2018
      • 277

      #3
      Originally posted by Mike90250
      If the Power Company has properly configured their meters, they will be flagged as a Backfeed source, if the inverter is ever mis-configured and does "sell to the Grid" . Then your friend will have to explain what happened and bring their system into compliance.
      Forgot to mention that the use of this inverter is only ment for backup with ATS and/or loads during peak hours only.

      Here we have also PRE-PAID meters and too frequent power outages in the area where I live right now. No selling to the grid with pre-paid meters.

      Comment

      • Ampster
        Solar Fanatic
        • Jun 2017
        • 3650

        #4
        Originally posted by GeorgeF
        .........
        Can someone with grid but no netmetering connect this "hard wired" bi-directional inverter (see pict) to his main-AC-panel? If not why not?
        They probably can do anything they want in Indonesia. But why spend the money on an expensive bidirectional inverter when they can use a manual switch to run their home from a less expensive inverter/battery setup. Does Indonesia even know what UL1741 is? Besides that is only relevant for grid tied or AC coupled systems in the USA. Why would you friend want to pay for something like that which is probably irrelevant in Indonesia?
        9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

        Comment

        • GeorgeF
          Solar Fanatic
          • Nov 2018
          • 277

          #5
          I understand that you can not connect a cheap chicom mobile inverter with only receptacles to your "grounded" house wiring, even with ATS. You need a UL 1741 (IEC 62109) inverter. Or am I wrong?

          Local standards follow IEC here.

          Ofcourse you have here also netmetering in big cities and you can buy here almost any advanced hybrid inverters with feedback.
          Last edited by GeorgeF; 05-12-2021, 02:21 PM.

          Comment

          • Ampster
            Solar Fanatic
            • Jun 2017
            • 3650

            #6
            Originally posted by GeorgeF
            I understand that you can not connect a cheap chicom mobile inverter with only receptacles to your "grounded" house wiring, even with ATS. You need a UL 1741 (IEC 62109) inverter. Or am I wrong?

            Local standards follow IEC here.

            ......
            If you knew the answer, why don't you tell your friend to just follow those rules. I doubt anyone here is familiar with Indonesian standards.

            9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

            Comment

            • GeorgeF
              Solar Fanatic
              • Nov 2018
              • 277

              #7
              Originally posted by Ampster
              If you knew the answer, why don't you tell your friend to just follow those rules. I doubt anyone here is familiar with Indonesian standards.
              Ampster, Im not sure that is why I ask.
              Let me rephrase the question:

              In a house with a (prepaid)grid connection, not possible to sell to the grid, if someone wants to install an ATS system can he install an UL 458 inverter as per above screenprint? Instead of a generator he occasionally wants to use his prepaid-grid to top-up or eq his lead acid FLA bank using the above inverter with built-in AC- charger

              As I understood well, mobile PSW inverters with only receptacles are not suitable to connect to "ANY" house-wiring system.

              Comment

              • Ampster
                Solar Fanatic
                • Jun 2017
                • 3650

                #8
                My guess is that if your friend has to ask, then he is not able or does not have the skills to do that safely. If you are not sure, do the research with the Indonesion authority having jurisdiction..Regardless of the meter type it is possible to charge batteries from a receptacle or circuit. The manual will tell you the capability of that inverter. If there is no net metering then the inverter has to be cabable of being programmed for zero export.
                Ate you asking for a fish or do you want to learn how to fish?
                Last edited by Ampster; 05-13-2021, 08:16 AM.
                9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

                Comment

                • GeorgeF
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Nov 2018
                  • 277

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ampster
                  My guess is that if your friend has to ask, then he is not able or does not have the skills to do that safely. If you are not sure, do the research with the Indonesion authority having jurisdiction..Regardless of the meter type it is possible to charge batteries from a receptacle or circuit. The manual will tell you the capability of that inverter. If there is no net metering then the inverter has to be cabable of being programmed for zero export.
                  Ate you asking for a fish or do you want to learn how to fish?
                  Is it not possible to ask this question here on this forum which is I think is applicable for a lot of countries, not only Indonesia?

                  Lets forget local regulations and local or international standards.

                  What kind of an inverter does someone need if he/she "safely" wants to install an ATS system with a pre-paid grid connection, not possible to "sell" to the grid. So, not only for charging a battery bank but also for AC-loads through the grounded house wiring in case of a poweroutage and/or if he wants to load during peak hours and switch to grid @ sundown,

                  even if he uses a suitable manual switch , grid to inverter (visa versa) ??

                  He ofcourse charge his battery bank also with PV.

                  Comment

                  • Ampster
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Jun 2017
                    • 3650

                    #10

                    Many hybrid inverters contain ATS. You can find a less expensive solution using a manual transfer switch and an off grid inverter like the one on the first post. There are various standalone ATS available if you want that to be automatic.
                    NOTE: Thanks to @ Solardreamer for mentioning that the inverter in the first post included an ATS.
                    Last edited by Ampster; 05-13-2021, 12:43 PM.
                    9 kW solar, 42kWh LFP storage. EV owner since 2012

                    Comment

                    • solardreamer
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • May 2015
                      • 452

                      #11
                      Originally posted by GeorgeF

                      Forgot to mention that the use of this inverter is only ment for backup with ATS and/or loads during peak hours only.

                      Here we have also PRE-PAID meters and too frequent power outages in the area where I live right now. No selling to the grid with pre-paid meters.

                      Since the inverter is only used when disconnected from the grid it's basically an off-grid use case. So, the grid meter (net meter or not) is not relevant. The inverter you referenced appears to be a typical off-grid inverter/charger with built-in ATS. If so, there should be no issue to run it in grid priority mode and connect its output via the built-in ATS to the main AC panel and grid to its AC input. Note, tt should be clear that this configuration also means the grid should not be directly connected to the main AC panel and the inverter's built-in ATS must be able to handle the full load of the main AC panel and battery charging when the grid is active. Otherwise, you will need separate ATS and slight different configuration.
                      Last edited by solardreamer; 05-13-2021, 12:30 PM.

                      Comment

                      • GeorgeF
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Nov 2018
                        • 277

                        #12
                        I responded "solardreamer" and the software reports "potential spam unapproved" ...?????

                        Comment

                        • GeorgeF
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Nov 2018
                          • 277

                          #13
                          Originally posted by solardreamer


                          Since the inverter is only used when disconnected from the grid it's basically an off-grid use case. So, the grid meter (net meter or not) is not relevant. The inverter you referenced appears to be a typical off-grid inverter/charger with built-in ATS. If so, there should be no issue to run it in grid priority mode and connect its output via the built-in ATS to the main AC panel and grid to its AC input. Note, tt should be clear that this configuration also means the grid should not be directly connected to the main AC panel and the inverter's built-in ATS must be able to handle the full load of the main AC panel and battery charging when the grid is active. Otherwise, you will need separate ATS and slight different configuration.
                          (Let me try again)

                          Thanks for above replies.

                          To be clear:

                          1. You can not use an offgrid PSW inverter with only receptacles and overcurrent protection for an ATS sistem that will power loads through your house wiring. Such inverters like attached pict is designed only to power a load directly from the receptacle(s), thus not connected in "anyway" to your existing AC house-wiring, although the grid is already isolated. Right?

                          2. You need an offgrid inverter with hard-wired DC input and AC output, with or without built-in AC-charger, to power your loads through your existing AC house wiring, usually only with overLOAD protection and not overCURRENT protection. Correct?
                          Attached Files

                          Comment

                          • solardreamer
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • May 2015
                            • 452

                            #14
                            Originally posted by GeorgeF

                            (Let me try again)

                            Thanks for above replies.

                            To be clear:

                            1. You can not use an offgrid PSW inverter with only receptacles and overcurrent protection for an ATS sistem that will power loads through your house wiring. Such inverters like attached pict is designed only to power a load directly from the receptacle(s), thus not connected in "anyway" to your existing AC house-wiring, although the grid is already isolated. Right?

                            2. You need an offgrid inverter with hard-wired DC input and AC output, with or without built-in AC-charger, to power your loads through your existing AC house wiring, usually only with overLOAD protection and not overCURRENT protection. Correct?

                            I would not use inverter without hard wired connection for the scenario and it should always be connected to main AC panel through an appropriately sized circuit breaker regardless of any protections available in the inverter itself. Depending on the local rules and main AC panel setup, you may need inverter that has either floating or bonded neutral for connection to main AC panel. Best to consult with a local electrician.

                            Comment

                            • GeorgeF
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Nov 2018
                              • 277

                              #15
                              Thanks for your reply solardreamer

                              Comment

                              Working...