Nickel Iron (NiFe) Batteries ... The few, but Overwhelming and Towering Strengths

Sundetective it is all a moot point. Lithium will win the acceptance of the market and NiFe wil be just a wet dream. You can already buy Lithium for the same or less cost than Nife.

If you want to know where the technology is going just follow the R&D money. It is all going to Lithium.

Sunking, One of my kids has a full set of what many would argue is one of the most advanced Lithium Polymer EV batteries ever made.
The people in S. Korea make them but claim they are past Chevy Volt Power. They make the older Volt batteries as well.
These lighter, badder, longer lasting, etc. units just came out in late May.

I hear enough to figure that as long as there are foul ups and humans there will be a place for NiFe batteries in the lives of my
kids and grandkids.

As with many things I don't see A. B. or C. as being THE BEST.

But D. which is a Hybrid System that capitalizes on the strengths of Lead Acid and X or X and Y

but greatly improves their love / hate relationship with Solar Panels by thinking a bit outside of the box and trying something new.

However now we are jumping ahead to one of the conclusions and a punch line of 'The NiFe Theory of Battery-tivity'


BB

More positive experience with NiFe

I can report being quite happy with NiFe, in my demanding off-grid application. I have lived off-grid for over 7 years, in Central Texas, with air conditioning no less...

For the first 4 years off-grid, we had a lightly used bank of Hawker PowerSafe batteries - 2700Ah. I loved those batteries, but they were clearly getting to the end of their service life at the 7 year mark, and while I could have kept them going for a few more years, they were adopted for a less demanding off-grid application (reduce, reuse, recycle...).

After 4 years with the Hawkers, I bought 40 620Ah NiFe batteries from John at BUF, and these have been in service for three years.

These are charged by 6KW of panels, via two MX60s and one MX80, set for "60V" battery charging, and various charging parameter tweaks evolved over time, which escape complete recollection right now. Ask me if you like, and I'll try to write them down for the forum.

On a typical Texas sunny day, the batteries see several hours at 66-68V. Typically, they see about 32KWh of charging on a clear day, here. On a typical day, 20KWh is "stored," using very conservative settings in my battery monitor for efficiency.

Inverters are two Outback FX3648s.

Positives:
- It's great to not have to worry about state-of-charge from a battery longevity perspective (i.e., knowing that I am not going to lose 50% of my efficiency nearly overnight, by having the batteries inadvertently stay in a low state of charge for 48 hours or so, which happens sometimes when you live off-grid in the "real world")
- It's great to not worry about absolute cycling and cycle limits; i.e. in the Summer, when we pretty much use the batteries as a chemical flywheel, using the entire charge cycle every day, to keep the AC going at night (Frigidaire IQ Drive 23 SEER).

Negatives:
- Hard to keep clean (they inevitably belch when charging in the summer)
- Expensive (I'd much prefer to have more capacity, but 1000Ah was way too expensive)
- Inefficient - no question about it. They are darned inefficient. When I first started using the three year-old Hawkers, I was blown away by how efficient they were. Back then, we lived off-grid with only 2.3 KW of solar panels, and the Hawkers were so efficient, that this actually worked. We once went nearly 17 days without sun, and the Hawkers stayed above 47v the whole time.
- Carbonation - This is the most troublesome, and an issue I do not yet have a handle on.

I am changing my electrolyte in a week or so, much earlier than I expected to (remember, this is the three year mark). Why? When I put these batteries into service, I installed a watering system from Battery Watering Systems, and this system failed miserably to do its job. Parts of the float mechanism were clearly not compatible with alkaline battery chemistry. Many cells were overwatered, chronically. This was not clear at the time, due to the difficulty assessing individual batteries in the array, with the watering system in place (it made it essentially impossible to closely inspect all the cells, systematically. Furthermore, overwatering individual cells led to float oil being floated out of the cells. At this point, I have wide variations in specific gravity, with some being optimal, some high, and some quite low (barely over 1!). Due to the loss of oil on many cells, and the frequent opening of cells for maintenance, since ripping out the BWS watering system, I am pretty certain there is significant carbonation.

I am experimenting with a platinum recombinant cap on one cell, and it is working quite well. It gets hot, but not excessively so, and it seems to retain water very well. I think this is the royal road to carbonation prevention (sealed caps) and reduced watering frequency (which is also germane to carbonation, as every time we open the caps to water, we re-expose the electrolyte to CO2).

When I redo the electrolyte, the plan is to use around 90g of LiOH per cell, which will bring the total electrolyte replacement cost to around 475.00. Again, expensive. But this time, I hope to make the electrolyte last longer, using the above described measures.

Also, I tend to agree with the folks who are advocating more "relaxed" charging of these batteries. Ideally, I will add more amp hour capacity to the battery bank over time, and try to keep them in the 50-80% area of the charging curve.

Here's the bottom line: they are working pretty well right now, with crappy electrolyte, probably equivalent to a 200Ah battery bank, and yet for a demanding off-grid home, with heavy use on some days (construction equipment use), they are working!

When all is said and done, having experienced what some feel are among the best and most trouble-free Lead Acid batteries, I love these NiFe's, and I am grateful to have them.

Glad to be a part of the forum,

Marcus
Central Texas

KF5IAE

Great post Marcus....thanks for the real life report !

Thanks Marcus - Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

Russ

Hi Marcus,

I would love to know how your Ni-Fe batteries are performing after the new electrolyte?

Marcus - how do you plan on emptying the cells? That's the thing stumping me. I've got 800 ah cells from BUF, and I'm not joyous about picking each one up, and shaking the dregs out through that tiny fill port. BUF suggested that there may be enough space in a corner of a cell, to drill out, drop a dip tube into it, and siphon or pump it out. Then something has to be devised to close up the hole.
Are you getting the chemicals from BUF or someplace else ?

Mike
(just logged many generator hours, and 35 days without reaching ABSORB. Finally, after 2 sunny days, and genset runtime in the AM, I completed absorb and have full batteries.)

His Excellency Thomas A. and his gang spent countless hours and a couple of million
(Pre WWI, 1900's dollars)
already figuring all that (easy fill and easy drain) stuff out using air pressure.
They also devised a system to use the US Navy Submarine
Ni-Fe batteries as CO2 scrubbers using the same fill and drain system -
if ever necessary.

I feel that you are looking at your Ni-Fe batteries from a discharge efficiency point of view.

How about from a charging efficiency point of view?

What happens when Changhong says that the internal resistance jumps so high after you run them
way down.

Am I reading it wrong or is it true that you don't tug on Superman's cape.
You don't piss into the wind. And you don't waste your resources trying to stuff low Ni-Fe batteries
with current - when you don't have to.

You wind up running the generator anyway.

Just because the Ni-Fe Cells don't sulfate doesn't mean they like being down.
Otherwise the Rolls 5000 series (and others) would not be embarrassing the Ni-Fe Cells so badly
at deep discharge rates.

It seems that Lead Acid batteries have high charge efficiency at low SOC levels.
Only terrible after you hit 78% full (or so).

It seems that Changhong speaks differently.
Mark posted it in his Ni-Fe / Rolls thread.

SEE PAGE 23:



The big problem is the 4 hours (or so) figure they use for solar charging.
Changhong designed the Ni-Fe Batteries for 8 or more hours
of charging years ago. It's all in writing like most things that I say.
Otherwise I would have been attacked a long time ago

For people that have the means I believe we have a way around a good part of that problem.
If fuel doubles in price someday people may give 'The Theory of Battery-tivity'
a fair look.
There isn't a dime in it for me so I'm not trying to sell it.
It's too heavy right now.

Bill Blake

Ok..... so let's hear it.




Thank you

plataoplomo,

You wrote to me at Fieldlines the first 2 times saying that you read every word
that I ever said about Ni-Fe. "Carefully".
You even Listed the forums for me. Even a forum that I read but never said a word in.

What ever happened to 'powerfarmer'.
He promised to tell ALL about his new Zapp Works Ni-Fe Cells
that you claim are your real interest.
Rolls Batteries and Changhong Batteries seem to be just to get the guy talking and sending you Links -
going by what you say.

The Holidays are over and my Son has tightened my time up a little for now.

You can already tell us what your asking about since you know my stuff better dan I do now.
Carry on.

Bill Blake

Interesting response to my simple request.

You have hinted that you have some thoughts on alternative charging routines that might alleviate some of the problems with NiFe cells.

Do you? Yes? No?



Thank you.

plataoplomo

Newbie

Posts: 0

Re: Truly dry Rolls Surrette supplier. / Howto setup a NiFe bank
« Sent to: BillBlake on: December 26, 2012, 02:12:46 AM »
« You have forwarded or responded to this message. »

<snip>

Thank you very much.

I've read every word you posted on Survival Monkey, this board, solar panel talk, and solar panel store. Carefully.

Thank you.

I am in a situation where I need a tough battery more than anything else. Hence my interest in NiFe.

I was never really interested in Changhong batteries. Anybody who manufactures and sells plastic rice has some issues with quality and integrity.

<end of snip>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you sent this to my Fieldlines forum account. If your not lying you already know the whole
"alternative charging routines" from Fieldlines - don't you.

I can't give you anymore time. The game is up.

Can you understand that?

2 private messages from you at Fieldlines and 3 private messages from you here is all that I need
to get the point. You came from out of the blue with no track record.
My mistake for trying to help you.

Bill Blake

Thank you I will go over there and look it up.

Changhong Batteries doesn't seem to miss a whole Lot.

I figure they stopped that Water Consumption Chart at a Charging Rate of 1.6 Volts
even though they do TALK (sometimes) about
Charging (sometimes) at a Higher Voltage.

Probably because the Chart became way too embarrassing over 1.6 Volts - the devils.

From what Mike (and Steve) have said they both go past that 1.6 Volt mark or else
the charging process takes too long and old Bill figures the Ni-Fe batteries holding Capacity
drops a good tad as well if you don't whip and push the badboys.



It does seem that a person would have to take a good look (over the years) at the (few)
various charging schemes that 'Changhong and the Electric Indian' has published.

Always keeping the
'Extremist Nickel Iron Battery Life Cycle Chart'
in mind as well.
Extremely good (Great) or just so so and inferior to high quality Lead Acid batteries depending on Your Game.
How strong or Lame is your game?

Then put a little open minded thought into whether a new Charging scheme can be formulated that plays
into the batteries strengths and veers around the weaknesses -
getting you over.

Not a cheap or dumb minded task in anybodies book but it may have to come someday if
dat generator fuel goes high enough $ (Refer to the song again).

Someone that can make the time is going to have to put some more time into this one.

I don't think we ever quite finished looking at the Charging of Ni-Fe batteries
nor did anyone
ever properly cover the proper future of Ni-Fe for young people with some 'push' in them.

However we did have a nice little taste here and there.

Bill Blake