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I understand what you're saying, but in the instance were discussing, the authority of a PE is what rules. If I walk into a local code office and I say what I'm installing, they want to see the manufacturers recommended installation procedure. If im straying from that they want it approved by a PE. I could calculate the load requirements myself, but to them that's meaningless without review by a PE.

Your other mention of PEs certifying things unrelated to their fields doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about. Sure that's a clear issue with the American engineering system, but then again it has worked rather well for many years. The ethics system works well as long as it's enforced when something goes wrong.

More than ethics - it is the guarantee of a lawsuit following up a screwup that keeps people within their area of expertise.

In the 'local code office' the PE stamp is their cover. They have done their due diligence once they see the stamp.

Yea that's what I meant when I said "as long as it's enforced when something goes wrong"

The quick and dirty definition of a PE is: I am legally responsible for the design and assume all liability for the design.

That is why I was making a nasty comment about the civil engineer PE that assured all of us he could sign off on environmental documents regarding pesticides - even when he didn't claim expertise.

He could do it but better start saying 'hail marys'!

To me, as I noted previously, the government agency can feel they have their due diligence when seeing the PE stamp. Otherwise they have to go through all details with a very fine toothed comb - when they neither have time, staff or possibly expertise.

The PE stamp has a very definite and beneficial use. That can be more or less an end point for some engineering but is hardly the only engineering that counts.

Russ

Well Russ there is no law or rule preventing me to stamp a Civil document. However it is unethical and an unspoken rule which none to my knowledge would do.

Right Sunking - but you have good enough sense not to so - unlike the fellow I was referring to.

Russ

Yes, but in most States, the legal use of the term engineering regarding what an organization is practicing is limited to that which is done under the supervision of a licensed PE. Sure most of the grunt work is done by non PE's, but a group of non PE's cannot get together and design something and then legally represent their work as engineering.

Exactly

Wrong again - maybe in the sector you deal with but overall wrong.

Russ

If you read - that is what I said.

I asked about your status - electrical engineer or not?

@ NABCEP Russ - For your edification and reading pleasure. Not the best source as it is the Wiki but adequate.

Some states issue generic Professional Engineering licenses. Others, known as "discipline states", issue licenses for specific disciplines of engineering, such as Civil Engineering, Mechanical Engineering and Electrical Engineering. In all cases, however, engineers are ethically required to limit their practice to their area of competency, which is usually a small portion of a discipline. While licensing boards do not often enforce this limitation, it can be a factor in negligence lawsuits. In a few states, licensed Civil Engineers may also perform land surveys.


In addition to the person's licensure, most states require that firms engaged in providing engineering services are authorized to do so. For instance, the State of Florida issues a Certificate of Authorization to firms that are owned by a Professional Engineer.


Civil engineers account for a large portion of licensed Professional Engineers. In Texas, for example, about one-third of licenses are for civil engineers, and civil exams make up over half of the exams taken.[11][12] Many of the remainder are mechanical, electrical, and structural engineers whose practice involves areas that states regulate, such as HVAC, electrical, plumbing, and fire protection systems for buildings or public infrastructure. However, some engineers in other fields obtain licenses for the ability to serve as professional witnesses, or just for prestige, even though they may never actually sign and seal design documents.


Since regulation of the practice of engineering is performed by the individual states in the U.S., areas of engineering involved in interstate commerce are essentially unregulated. These areas include much of Mechanical Engineering, Aerospace Engineering, and Chemical Engineering, and may be specifically exempted from regulation under an "Industrial Exemption". An industrial exemption covers engineers who design products such as automobiles that are sold (or have the potential to be sold) outside the state in which they are produced, as well as the equipment used to produce the product. Structures subject to building codes are not covered by an industrial exemption, though small residential buildings often do not require an engineer's seal. In many jurisdictions, the role of architects and structural engineers overlap.


Many private companies employ non-degreed workers in technical positions with engineering titles such as "test engineer" or "field engineer". Such position may not require an engineering degree at the discretion of the company. It is important however, to make a distinction between a "graduate engineer" and a "professional (or licensed) engineer". A "graduate engineer" is anyone holding a degree in engineering from an accredited four-year university.

Best Regards
Russ

Not wrong again. In the sector we're discussing, a firm advertising itself as performing engineering must put out work that is sealed by a licensed engineer. See the PA Board of Engineers' Regulations on the subject:

"Section 3. Practice of Engineering, Land Surveying or Geology With- out Licensure and Registration Prohibited.
(a) In order to safeguard life, health or property and to promote the general welfare, it is unlawful for any person to practice or to offer to practice engineering in this Commonwealth, unless he is licensed and registered under the laws of this Commonwealth as a professional engineer,"

I do agree in other fields such as Mechanical plenty of Electrical, Chemical, and others, the PE is not required in order to use the term engineering, but in this field in many US States, that is not the case.

My degree is in Civil Engineering, my professional career has been involved with a mixture of electrical, structural, and land development work.

If this discrepancy is the point you are making, then I agree wholeheartedly with you.