Major players in the residential market vs. local installers - which is better?

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  • gwelty
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2015
    • 13

    #16
    Originally posted by emartin00
    Don't expect SolarCity or the other big companies to disappear after the tax credit expires. They will mostly cut back their operation, but they are still going to be around for a long time.
    Many people point to their losses every year, but in reality, their structure is set up with high expenses up front, followed by 20 years of steady income. If they went out of business, then thousands of people would end up with an almost free system on their roof.
    That also seems extremely likely to me. I don't know much about other national companies, but I know that SolarCity is laser focused on reducing cost in order to stay competitive post FTC. I believe that was the reason they purchased Silevo and are manufacturing panels in the US. The cost of doing business will increase significantly. And when it does, companies that can offer a short payback period or lower price than market kWh rates will fare well.

    Comment

    • sensij
      Solar Fanatic
      • Sep 2014
      • 5074

      #17
      Originally posted by gwelty
      That also seems extremely likely to me. I don't know much about other national companies, but I know that SolarCity is laser focused on reducing cost in order to stay competitive post FTC. I believe that was the reason they purchased Silevo and are manufacturing panels in the US. The cost of doing business will increase significantly. And when it does, companies that can offer a short payback period or lower price than market kWh rates will fare well.
      SolarCity doesn't compete on price. They win business based on marketing. Anyone doing any sort of competent research would strike them off the list without a second thought. Post-ITC, they should be fine, because their customers are the most ignorant of the ignorant, and those folks will always be out there, ready to buy a good story no matter how poor the numbers work out. (no offense intended to SolarCity customers who may be reading this).
      CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

      Comment

      • Naptown
        Solar Fanatic
        • Feb 2011
        • 6880

        #18
        Local established installer
        Disclosure i work for one
        Now my take on this
        I was in this business when the Carter era credits expired.
        All the big players were gone within months. ( reynolds aluminum, grumman, sears, revere etc)
        Beware of the roofer electrician who runs this under a subsidiary business.
        If the contract is under a name or license number other than the main bisiness than they can bow out without any liability.
        A recent example of this is shuco who sold a lot of hot water systems.
        They shut down the US subsidiary and skated on all warranty issues.
        Those who fail to follow history are doomed to repeat it
        NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

        [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

        [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

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        Comment


        • ncs55
          ncs55 commented
          Editing a comment
          Very true, and Velux did the same with their systems and left my customers and me with no replacement parts for future replacements. On top of that most of their system parts are metric and cannot be obtained over here in a timely manner. Both were top of the line engineered systems and are working fine currently. But in the end I whole heartedly agree. I sold these systems with the promise of both companies would be around to stand behind their product. Oh were here to stay is what they were telling us.
      • J.P.M.
        Solar Fanatic
        • Aug 2013
        • 14939

        #19
        Originally posted by Naptown
        Local established installer
        Disclosure i work for one
        Now my take on this
        I was in this business when the Carter era credits expired.
        All the big players were gone within months. ( reynolds aluminum, grumman, sears, revere etc)
        Beware of the roofer electrician who runs this under a subsidiary business.
        If the contract is under a name or license number other than the main bisiness than they can bow out without any liability.
        A recent example of this is shuco who sold a lot of hot water systems.
        They shut down the US subsidiary and skated on all warranty issues.
        Those who fail to follow history are doomed to repeat it
        I was around for that one too, but as a neophyte solar geek. It was a mess but woke up a lot of folks who had thought solar was the hands down future. Hope I'm wrong, but things sure look like they're shaping up for a repeat soon.

        Comment

        • FFE
          Solar Fanatic
          • Oct 2015
          • 178

          #20
          So you posted on a forum filled with local installers and few National installers. What kind of response did you expect to get?

          Any installer can go out of business and then rename their company and get a new license. A national company or a 50 year old roofing company can do this. I believe your best bet is to make sure you get quality equipment installed. That way it has the best chance of lasting and being warranted by the manufacturer. Some national companies will not let you spec the equipment. You are rolling the dice and hoping for good equipment. At least with a local company you have the best possibility of benefiting your local tax base more than a National company.

          Comment

          • solar pete
            Administrator
            • May 2014
            • 1816

            #21
            Originally posted by J.P.M.
            I was around for that one too, but as a neophyte solar geek. It was a mess but woke up a lot of folks who had thought solar was the hands down future. Hope I'm wrong, but things sure look like they're shaping up for a repeat soon.
            Yeah sort a, I dont think it will to much of a slowdown in area's where kWh are expensive. I do see the SC's of the business rolling up and selling the ongoing revenue (people paying the leases) to what we call superannuation funds, they love that long term recurring revenue stuff, it might make elon enough to survive his other issues and actually start to make money

            Comment

            • huge
              Solar Fanatic
              • May 2016
              • 111

              #22
              I've broken it down to 2 options. Going with Costco /sunrun or going with local installer LA Solar Group, which seems to get good reviews here. The local company is about 10 % cheaper. I would love to save a couple of thousand dollars, but isn't a 10% premium worth the backing of Costco? If sunrun goes belly up, Costco will still be in business

              Comment

              • foo1bar
                Solar Fanatic
                • Aug 2014
                • 1833

                #23
                Originally posted by huge
                but isn't a 10% premium worth the backing of Costco? If sunrun goes belly up, Costco will still be in business
                IMO - No, it isn't worth it.

                But it's your money.

                Comment


                • ncs55
                  ncs55 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yeah, try getting a warranty out of Home Depot from a past install of a contractor who has gone out of business. It is a battle to the death. I do not know Costco's fine print, but I would bet they will not be responsible in the long run.
              • ncs55
                Junior Member
                • Apr 2016
                • 100

                #24
                Originally posted by harleydee
                local or big company

                is it worth it to go with smaller company for a few thousand of savings
                It is not only the company. In California I would recommend using a company that has a C-46 license, The C-46 is solar specific and can do all aspects of the job. Using a C-10 (electrical contractor) can be dicey. As a C-10 may know the electrical side, their journey men know squat about roof penetrations and proper flashing and actually a C-10 is not licensed for that part. Usually they will sub out a roofer for that, then you have to deal with two companies. Although a B contractor (general) can perform everything, they can be lacking in some of the finer aspects of design and proper installation. Check the license regardless of the company and see if they have had any complaints with the CSLB or whatever is the equivalent in your state. Most reviews are done within the first few days or weeks after the install is performed and are a little misleading. Often only displaying only the positive reviews and omitting the others. Look for long term results from the contractor that you choose. The company may have been in business for 5-7 years and may look solid. Until you find out in the 8th to 9th year they have gone out of business because they cannot afford to honor their warranties. In the end, do your homework and independently ask others who have first hand experience with the contractor of your choice.

                Comment

                • rsilvers
                  Junior Member
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 246

                  #25
                  I don't feel like I need a company to "service my system" in a few years. Anyone can service your system.

                  What is the big deal? If my inverter dies, call the company who made it and try to get a new one under warranty. Or buy a new one. Swap it.

                  The hard part of solar is the roof footings, the permits, lifting the modules, applying for net-metering and SRECs.

                  A warranty is nice, but I would not pay very much extra for it.

                  As for premium installs - conduit inside the attic and mounting inverters in the basement are part of that.

                  Comment


                  • ncs55
                    ncs55 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Well, I never referenced maintenance anywhere in my comment, but since you were so kind to bring that up, you should consider that PV needs at least 1 service per year, wash the modules and check out all of the components, regardless of what you may hear as a system that is maintenance free, they are not. And anyone cannot service your PV system, they have to be licensed for this and most of all qualified. If or when the inverter and or modules fail, the manufacturer will not perform the uninstall or reinstall or the troubleshooting involved to determine if you have a valid claim under their warranty. They will tell you to have a contractor check these things out. Hmm, I think, you will need a service orientated contractor that is specific in that field, A homeowner is not qualified for this. I was only referring to other considerations for choosing an installer based on their type of license. check what each license can and cannot perform for solar applications and you might understand what my post is about. And by the way a C-46 will address all of your issues as that is what they are licensed for.
                    Last edited by ncs55; 05-12-2016, 05:26 PM. Reason: added text

                  • rsilvers
                    rsilvers commented
                    Editing a comment
                    ncs55 - I was not replying to your post. I didn't read your post.

                  • ncs55
                    ncs55 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    oops sorry. That is what is distracting about posts, as there was no reference to whom you were replying to and it was right after mine, well.
                • rsilvers
                  Junior Member
                  • Apr 2016
                  • 246

                  #26
                  Originally posted by Yaryman
                  I asked my installer if he would still be in business after 2016 if the Fed credit didn't renew.
                  It did renew.

                  Comment

                  • peakbagger
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 1565

                    #27
                    Originally posted by emartin00

                    Don't expect SolarCity or the other big companies to disappear after the tax credit expires. They will mostly cut back their operation, but they are still going to be around for a long time.
                    Many people point to their losses every year, but in reality, their structure is set up with high expenses up front, followed by 20 years of steady income. If they went out of business, then thousands of people would end up with an almost free system on their roof.
                    Lets substitute a major company building solar panels who walked away and left their customers high and dry when they decided not to play the solar game anymore, Arco, Shell, Siemens, Schuco, Evergreen. Same thing will happen with big names, they will figure out a way to sell the division to shed any liability.

                    My prediction is that the long term financial instruments may remain but the servicing companies will change. SolarCity just leases and installs the product and then resells the lease to their shell company Terraform Power. Solarcity will go bankrupt but Terraform will be holding the paper. After the inevitable bankruptcies, someone will end up with the leases at a steep discount. The new owner will then try to figure out a way to monetize them. One method is make it impossible for a person selling a home with a leased PV system to transfer it to a new owner. The original owner will be stuck having to pay an overinflated fee to buy out their lease, which the current leaseholder bought at pennies on a dollar. The new firm wont have a lot of interest in any long term service and I expect the fixed price for removing the system when the owner needs to reroof is long gone.

                    A consumers choice is to buy know brand equipment installed by a local installer with a long resume of installations. There are extended warranties available for inverters and at least one solar panel company, Canadian Solar, has their warranty coverage backed up by an independent insurance company, even if they go under, the insurance company has to cover the warranty. Even that has its issues as if a panel fails and there is no inventory, the insurance company is most likely going to cut a prorated check for the one failed panel and leave the owner with a partially functioning array. The other thing out of the owners control is a good local building inspector. If the inspector is thorough and doesn't accept shortcuts, the local contractors will know it and ramp up their game a national firm will most likely just take their chances and send someone back to correct what they were caught on. If on the other hand the inspector is overworked or just plain lazy, the locals will know what shortcuts they can get away with.
                    Last edited by peakbagger; 05-13-2016, 08:33 AM.

                    Comment


                    • rsilvers
                      rsilvers commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I had a little trouble parsing that when I was on a phone call at the same time, so I ran your text in a reading difficulty calculator and it scored a 51 (30-50 is considered difficult to read). I then put in some text from a long Facebook post I recently made, and it was a 75 (fairly easy to read.). Interesting.

                      ^This above text scored an 81.
                  • ncs55
                    Junior Member
                    • Apr 2016
                    • 100

                    #28
                    Originally posted by peakbagger

                    Lets substitute a major company building solar panels who walked away and left their customers high and dry when they decided not to play the solar game anymore, Arco, Shell, Siemens, Schuco, Evergreen. Same thing will happen with big names, they will figure out a way to sell the division to shed any liability.

                    My prediction is that the long term financial instruments may remain but the servicing companies will change. SolarCity just leases and installs the product and then resells the lease to their shell company Terraform Power. Solarcity will go bankrupt but Terraform will be holding the paper. After the inevitable bankruptcies, someone will end up with the leases at a steep discount. The new owner will then try to figure out a way to monetize them. One method is make it impossible for a person selling a home with a leased PV system to transfer it to a new owner. The original owner will be stuck having to pay an overinflated fee to buy out their lease, which the current leaseholder bought at pennies on a dollar. The new firm wont have a lot of interest in any long term service and I expect the fixed price for removing the system when the owner needs to reroof is long gone.

                    A consumers choice is to buy know brand equipment installed by a local installer with a long resume of installations. There are extended warranties available for inverters and at least one solar panel company, Canadian Solar, has their warranty coverage backed up by an independent insurance company, even if they go under, the insurance company has to cover the warranty. Even that has its issues as if a panel fails and there is no inventory, the insurance company is most likely going to cut a prorated check for the one failed panel and leave the owner with a partially functioning array. The other thing out of the owners control is a good local building inspector. If the inspector is thorough and doesn't accept shortcuts, the local contractors will know it and ramp up their game a national firm will most likely just take their chances and send someone back to correct what they were caught on. If on the other hand the inspector is overworked or just plain lazy, the locals will know what shortcuts they can get away with.
                    I understand exactly what was said here, and it is pretty much spot on. Currently I am trying to help a customer warranty a complete array of 64 modules that have serious problems. This company was a major player in the module manufacturing industry before they realized that they had problems in the marriage process of their module assembly. They stopped producing the modules as soon as they realized that they had hundreds of thousands of modules out in the field that were and are failing. This is what they want for warranty process, VOC readings, ISC readings, remove each module and photograph front and back showing the complete frame, with serial numbers, then reinstall. And they want the customer to pay for this. It is obvious from the readings we have taken on over 1/3 without removal, that they are under the production that they should be for a 9 year old array. We also supplied the global readings from each inverter VOC, VMP, and IMP. The condition of the modules and what is happening to them could easily lend to the module catching on fire during the removal process from flex while handling them. This is what this manufacturer wants, that has gone out of business, to try and avoid replacement. On top of that, if you get the warranty they want to substitute their modules with the cheapest modules available in the same wattage. To get a cash settlement involves the customer threatening court action. Also note this customer is living on retirement and has limited income, and depends on his system working as warranted. Simply cannot afford an uninstall and reinstall for warranty then another uninstall and reinstall after the warranty.
                    You do not have permission to view this gallery.
                    This gallery has 2 photos.
                    Last edited by ncs55; 05-13-2016, 12:57 PM.

                    Comment

                    • peakbagger
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Jun 2010
                      • 1565

                      #29
                      "I had a little trouble parsing that when I was on a phone call at the same time, so I ran your text in a reading difficulty calculator and it scored a 51 (30-50 is considered difficult to read). I then put in some text from a long Facebook post I recently made, and it was a 75 (fairly easy to read.). "

                      Wow I am thrilled by your insightful commentary and its applicability to this thread. My assumption is that most folks are here for the content and graduated from high school with reading skills but I guess I must be wrong, Holding Facebook posts up as an example of writing quality is not something I would be proud of . Probably a good example why some folks sign leases that they haven't read, don't understand and are clueless when they get taken for a ride. I guess the commenters expectation is the Theodor Geisel approach is required for all posts. The reality is that if folks aren't financially literate, they had better find someone they trust who is or plan on getting taken for a ride.

                      As the prior poster commented even if everything was done right, the little guy still can get burned.

                      Comment

                      • J.P.M.
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Aug 2013
                        • 14939

                        #30
                        Originally posted by peakbagger
                        "I had a little trouble parsing that when I was on a phone call at the same time, so I ran your text in a reading difficulty calculator and it scored a 51 (30-50 is considered difficult to read). I then put in some text from a long Facebook post I recently made, and it was a 75 (fairly easy to read.). "

                        Wow I am thrilled by your insightful commentary and its applicability to this thread. My assumption is that most folks are here for the content and graduated from high school with reading skills but I guess I must be wrong, Holding Facebook posts up as an example of writing quality is not something I would be proud of . Probably a good example why some folks sign leases that they haven't read, don't understand and are clueless when they get taken for a ride. I guess the commenters expectation is the Theodor Geisel approach is required for all posts. The reality is that if folks aren't financially literate, they had better find someone they trust who is or plan on getting taken for a ride.

                        As the prior poster commented even if everything was done right, the little guy still can get burned.
                        Yea. +1. Welcome to a 3d world future full of knuckle dragging mouth breathers.

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